马男波杰克第二季

我有多无聊/喜欢这个…… 随手渣翻采访。

原文：
http://www.vulture.com/2015/07/bojack-horseman-season-two-raphael-bob-waksberg.html?mid=twitter_vulture
I've been thinking a lot about episode 11, where BoJack hooks up with Charlotte's teenage daughter Penny. It's like, Oh, you're maybe even worse than I thought.
[Pause.] Yeah. He did some pretty shitty things in that episode. It's very much one step forward, two steps back; three steps forward, four steps back; eight steps forward, maybe only five steps back. One of the early conversations I had with Michael Eisner [who owns BoJack backing company Tornante] was about what kind of show this is, what we're saying about BoJack. And he said, "Oh, the idea of this character is that he goes right up to that line and doesn't cross it," and I said, "No, what's interesting is that he does cross the line, and then he crosses back, and then he crosses again." You're kind of rooting for him, but you're kind of not.

Are there stories where the writers' room conversation becomes, "Is this maybe too far"?
We were really precise with episode 11. There was a lot of talk of how unclothed the characters would be, what step in the process is [Charlotte] walking in on. So, yes, there are things that feel like they're too far — but sometimes it's important to push yourself onto that ledge. When I first pitched the episode, it was that BoJack goes to New Mexico and gets involved with the family, and he sleeps with Charlotte. And as we were breaking the episode, someone had the idea of, what if it's the daughter? And at first we were all like, "No no no, we can't do that." But the more we thought about it, the more it made sense — and the more it was in our heads, and it felt almost cowardly not to go that far … I'm sure we lost people over that episode. But that's okay; it's not for everybody.

I was sort of torn about that episode because we heard Kelsey even say, "BoJack is stunted," and we know he's sort of unable to mature. But also, why would anyone think it's okay for a grown-up to be someone's date to a prom? There's something really fucked up about that in the first place.
Yeah, BoJack doesn't see himself as a grown-up. He doesn't think he's a 50-year-old man. And because he's a cartoon horse, our audience doesn't think that either. So it's fun to remind them: He is a grown-ass adult. He's 51. He doesn't get how inappropriate that is.

Let's talk a little about Wanda. How early in the character's development did Lisa Kudrow sign on?
She took the part because she read episode two and thought it was funny, so we knew who Wanda was at that point, and we knew what her arc was going to be. But then when you get Lisa Kudrow and you hear her say lines, she's very fun to write for. That affected the way we wrote the character going forward ...
She was coming in [for table-reads] while The Comeback was airing, so I got to geek out with her. I love that show — you can see that show's DNA on BoJack if you're looking, and not even closely.

Wanda's mulch joke really caught me by surprise. When you're breaking that episode, how did the decision arise to use a brick joke?
You know how Broadway composers have their "trunk songs"? I have a handful of bits that are sort of my trunk bits — going about in life, you have a moment and you think, Oh, I'd like to use that in something. Like the movie-star speech Rutabega gives Princess Carolyn: I've given similar speeches to friends who are heartbroken. The Zoe/Zelda thing in season one came from a Tia and Tamera observation I've had for a while. So the mulch joke is a similar variation in a brick joke that I love — but we had to change it a bit because the original joke involves animals, and it wouldn't work for our show. But I've had this idea for a while, that I want to do a story where there's a question about a relationship, and this joke hammers in those ideas of, is this someone I want to be with? And then later on they deliver the second half of it, and it works as a metaphor for everything: Oh, there's more to this person than I realized. It's a nice reveal.

You mentioned that you couldn't use an animal-oriented joke. Is that how this season's episode "Chickens" came about? How rigid is the show bible about which animals exist?
We're working on it as we go along. But very early on we decided that all the animals are animal-people. No one has pets. There's no little birds flying from tree to tree — it's a world full of Goofys, not Plutos, to use a Disney analogy. In season one I was really hesitant to depict meat-eating in any way. But then someone pitched a joke with a cow waitress serving steak and being really offended. And it was funny, so we put it in, but then it raises questions. So in the back of my mind I knew, somewhere in season two we're going to have to explain where meat comes from. And the horrifying answer is it comes from animals. And what's really funny about that is that it's kind of horrifying in the real world, too, but we try not to think about it.
In season one we didn't want to show a lot of underwater animals because we thought, Well, they live underwater, they can't breathe air. But then we had Tom Jumbo Grumbo the whale, and Sextina Aquafina the dolphin, and Neal the seal, so we thought, Okay, well we can have mammals because they can breathe air. But still no fish. And then we had a joke about an electric eel with a Taser, so we chucked that rule about the fish. So now we have Abe the Catfish with his water bottle, and now you see a lot more aquatic creatures.

Season one felt like it was largely about depression, and this season felt a lot more like it was about loneliness and the quest for connections. Do you think the show believes in love?
I guess what you're asking is, like, do I believe in love. The show believes what I make it believe, right?

But you don't believe in animal-human hybrids walking the earth, and the show does. There's some distinction there, no?
I think the show believes in love but it's very suspicious of happy endings — that fade to black, you got the guy, the girl, the prince rescued you from the dragon, and we don't need to see anything else. Like anything, it's hard and it takes work, and you gotta do it every day. That's the message of season two.
[...] You could be with the perfect person but still, every day, part of you is thinking, Could I do better? Is this what I'm doing? And then other days it's, I'm a total mess, how could anyone deign to tolerate me? I'm so lucky to have this person and feel so connected, and we get each other and fit in like puzzle pieces. I don't think anyone feels that way all the time. Or maybe some people do? But I'm not hoping for that in my life, I'm not expecting that. I think expecting that leads to madness. And if I can have a TV show where I don't posit that that is the goal, if I can push out a message about love through my art, that's what it would be: a small asterisk saying,"It doesn't always work this way," in a sea of stories saying, "I was miserable because my boyfriend was bad, but then I found a boyfriend who was good and now I'm happy forever."

So what might we be able to look forward to in a season three?
You're stressing me out. I read everything [people write about BoJack], and people have been very kind, and getting what we do. But it terrifies me because now we're at the top of the roller coaster, and now the backlash begins. So, what are my predictions for season three? It's that everyone's going to hate it because it's not like season two, or everyone's going to hate it because it's just like season two. That's my prediction for what all future seasons will be, or anything else I do from now on. I've hit my peak, I've finally gotten acceptance for my strange little horse baby, and now that I've gotten acceptance, the pitchforks come out.
My current state is simultaneous jubilation and terror. How wonderful, I'm being accepted for the weirdo that I am — and it's only a matter of time before they see the weirdo that I really am. It's too good. I'm very suspicious. It feels like a prank! I feel like I'm in She's All That and it's a dare, and the whole world has agreed: "Let's make this guy think we like his show, but actually it's just a bet and he's just a kid with glasses." Is that the end of She's All That?

No, it has a happy ending. You're thinking of Carrie.
Oh, that reminds me of my favorite joke from the season that got cut for time. In episode six, where Todd and Mr. Peanutbutter are talking to their accountant, and he's telling them they don't have any money left. The accountant says, "You're more in the red than Carrie on prom night." And the original line back was Todd saying, "You know, my friends say I'm a Carrie but I think I'm more of a Miranda."

附：这季最重要的对话之一：
Mr. Peanutbutter: “You’re a millionaire movie star with a girlfriend who loves you, acting in your dream movie. What more do you want? What else could the universe possibly owe you?!”
BoJack: “I…want to feel good about myself. The way you do. And I don’t know how. I don’t know if I can.”


渣翻开始：
我一直都在回想BoJack和Charlotte还是青少年的女儿Penny搞上的第11集。就像是，“啊，你好像比我以为的还要差劲”。
[停顿] 对。这一集他做了一些比较屎的事情。往前走一步，往后退两步；往前走三步，往后退四步；往前走八步，然后可能只退个五步。我和Michael Eisner早期谈论这个剧到底是什么样、把BoJack写成什么样的时候，他说“想法就是面对界限，这个角色会走到界限前，但不会跨过去”。而我说，“不，有意思的是他会跨越那条界限，但他会跨回来，然后又再跨过去”。你既有些挺他，又不太。

有没有“这是不是太过火了”的对话？
我们很清楚11集应该如何。谈论了很多角色脱了多少，Charlotte撞到了哪一步。是，有些地方可能让人感觉太过了，但有时候逼自己跃上刀锋很重要。最开始我pitch这一集的时候，是BoJack去新墨西哥和这一家人待一起，然后他和Charlotte睡了。后来有人想到，如果是女儿呢？一开始我们的反应都是“不不不，不能那么做”。但越多考虑这个主意，它就越make sense——它越停留在我们脑海中，就越让我们觉得不那么做的话太窝囊了。。。那一集肯定让我们失去了一些观众。但没什么，（这个剧）不是所有人的菜。

我对那一集有些纠结，因为连Kelsey都说BoJack停止发育了，我们也知道他有点无法成熟起来。不过，怎么会有人觉得一个大人可以当prom date？那一点真是太琱乱了。
是，BoJack不把自己当成年人看待。他不觉得自己是个50岁的男人。由于他是匹卡通马，观众也不那么觉得。所以提醒他们这一点很好玩：他是他妈的成年人。他51岁了。他不明白那非常不恰当。

（省略Lisa Kudrow部分）

你提起过有一个动物向的梗没能用到。那是不是这季“Chickens”这集的来由？这个剧对于哪些动物可以存在有多死板？
我们是走几步看几步。但最初我们就确定了所有的动物都是动物人。没人养宠物。没有从一棵树飞到另一棵树的小鸟——用迪斯尼类比的话，这是个充满着高飞们（而不是布鲁托们）的世界。第一季的时候我对于任何表现吃肉的（情节）充满顾虑，但有人提议了一个关于女牛待端上牛排而觉得很被冒犯的笑话。还挺好笑，所以我们用了，但它引发了一些问题。在内心某个地方，我知道，第二季我们会得解释肉是哪儿来的。而可怕的答案就是来自动物。好笑的是，在真实世界那其实也有些可怕，只是我们尽量不去想它。
第一季里我们没想设定太多水下生物，因为我们觉得，他们生活在水下，呼吸不了空气。但后来有了鲸鱼Tom Jumbo Grumbo，海豚Sextina Aquafina和Neal the seal，所以又想，好吧，可以有哺乳动物因为他们能呼吸空气。但还是不能有鱼。然后我们又有了个带电枪的电鳗的梗，所以鱼这条规定就也抛弃了。现在我们有自带水瓶的Abe the Catfish，你能看到多了很多水生物了。

第一季感觉大体上是讲抑郁，而这季更像是说孤独和寻觅connections。你觉得这个剧相信爱吗？
你问的其实大概是，我是否相信爱。这部剧相信我让它相信的，对吧？

但你不相信动物和人的合体们在世上活动，而这部剧却有。还是有些区别的，不是吗？
我想这部剧是相信爱的，但对happy ending持怀疑态度——屏幕变暗，你得到了那个男人，那个女孩，王子把你从龙那儿解救出来，然后我们不需要再看到接下来任何其他的那种。这像世间任何事一样，很难，需要花费很大力气，还需要每天都去努力。这就是第二季的message。

也许和你在一起的是你的真命天子，但每天你仍然会想，”我是不是能找到更好的？我现在在做什么啊？“而另一些时候则是，”我就是个烂摊子，怎么会有人能忍受我？我能有现在这个让我觉得如此心连心的人真是太幸运了，我们互相理解，像七巧板一样契合“。我觉得没有人会一直那么想。还是说也许有的人会？但至少我是不期望我能那样，我并不期待那样。我觉得期望会把人弄疯。如果我能做一部不提倡那是最终目标的电视剧，如果我能通过我的作品阐述关于爱的讯息，它会是：在海量的讲“我之前很悲惨，因为我的男朋友不好，但我找到了一个好的男朋友，现在我永远幸福了” 的故事中，有一个小小的星号（*）说“事情并不总会这样发展”。

那第三季里我们可以期待什么呢？
你给我太大压力了。我读了所有（BoJack的评论），大家都很好心，懂我们所做的。但这让我感到害怕，因为我们现在处于过山车的顶端，现在是backlash开始的时候了。所以，我对第三季的预期？就是所有人都会讨厌它，因为它和第二季不一样；或者，所有人都会讨厌它，因为它和第二季一模一样。我对所有之后的季和之后我的所有作品的预期都是这样。我已经抵达顶端，我终于凭我奇怪的小马匹获得了认可，而获得认可后，该是叉子出来了。

我的现状是欣喜与恐惧并存。“太棒了，我的weirdo本性被接受了”——“他们认清我到底是什么样的weirdo只是时间问题”。事情太顺利了。我很心疑。感觉像是恶作剧一样！我觉得我像是在“She’s All That”里，这只是个赌，而整个世界都商量好了“我们让这个人以为我们喜欢他的剧，但实际上这只是个赌，他只是个戴眼镜的小孩。”那是She’s All That的结局吧？

不，那是个happy ending。你指的是Carrie。
哦，让我想起来了这季里因为时间问题被切掉的我最喜欢的一个梗。第六集里，Todd和Mr. Peanutbutter跟会计谈话的时候，他跟他们说他们没有钱了。会计说：“你们比prom night的Carrie还要血红。”本来台词是Todd说：“你知道吗，我朋友们都说我是个Carrie，但我觉得我更像Miranda。”